What Trump & Vance were trying to do to Ukraine economically last Friday in The White House, is the same as what Russia has tried to do militarily to Ukraine since 2014.
Trump and Putin both want to take Ukraine and give nothing back, such as a Security Guarantee.
Actually they did give a Security Guarantee before, in the Budapest Memorandum, in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons.
Britain and France are honouring this guarantee, Russia and the US, not so much.
The aim for the US seems to be to make money, even though this will weaken America around the world.
Yes, you're right, trust has gone, which also is very sad at a personal level for many of us, as we reflect and remember...
Britain & The Commonwealth stood alone against fascism for over 2 years from 1939; my father and family lived in Coventry, a city which was heavily bombed in the mass killing of civilians, started by the fascists in 1940, ahead of Hitler's planned invasion that year; Dad then served in the army in North Africa, Sicily and up through Italy to Austria thro ugh to1945; the British were fighting shoulder-to-shoulder alonside Canadians, Americans and many others, against the common enemy.
How sad all those who went through WW2 would be now to see our greatest allie of all, the US, turn away from standing-up for freedom against a cold killing dictator.
I’ve been listening to this podcast for 4 years mostly because of it’s even handedness on topics, but this entire episode was so hyperbolic it was nearly unlistenable.
I agree that Trump’s treatment of Zelensky was appalling, but the idea that the US will abandon Europe is nonsense. The administration has consistently and plainly stated that it will continue to back Article 5 and NATO (Trump, his defense secretary, secretary of state, national security advisor) have all repeated this and it is enshrined in US law, with overwhelming bipartisan support. Even if Trump wanted to leave, it would take a decade, time Trump doesn’t have.
There is a genuine split over Ukraine, but Ukraine isn’t all of Europe. And the idea that economic ties will rupture over this is patently insane - neither America or Europe could afford such a thing.
This isn’t to say one can’t be outraged by Trump’s treatment of Ukraine (I am), his cozying up to Russia (it’s disgusting). It’s to say that it’s been less than 6 weeks and much has yet to be determined. Politics still need to happen, and as Trump’s number continue to sink (he’s under water), and the economy continues to weaken, it’s likely that in 6 months time Trump will be severely weakened.
In the current reality where everything is governed by hyperbolic, sensationalized pronouncements, I hope that the Other Hand continues to be even keeled and clear eyed. Lord knows the world needs more of it.
I'm sorry that you found my comments hyperbolic. I've reflected on your argument and on what I said. You probably won't be surprised to hear that I respectfully disagree.
Balance is a good thing. But sometimes pursued enirely for its own sake it can lead us into a trap: we might fail to recognise that an issue or question doesn't really have a balanced or nuanced answer. It really is, occasionally, very one sided.
I'm not the only one to argue in this way. Far more respected commentators than me have used the words 'The West is over'. Martin Wolf in the FT for example.
History is littered with examples of self-interest pursued by nation states that leads to disaster - the opposite of self-interest.
Others who use similar language to me are Hal Brands in the current issue of Foreign Affairs and Max Hasting's in today's issue of the London Times.
Trump has muttered about it and in the last few days Elon Musk has explicitly called for it: US withdrawal from both NATO and the UN.
Respectfully, this comment isn’t up to your caliber. I spelled out specific reasons why I think the US will not abandon Europe. I get the vibes are terrible and Trump is noxious, but we must take the time to actually reason through the tough times. And while Ukraine might be on the chopping block, US-Europe relations will persist. 70% of Americans support NATO, and Trump isn’t forever.
I’ve read those commentators also and while they are incredibly well written, I find them lacking in specifics or analysis. Trump and Elon may mutter. But they are not as powerful as we think and serious headwinds are on the horizon.
It’s been only 6 weeks of this administration. Perhaps you are right that “the west is over”. And while it’s quite clear the nature of the relationship will change, I have a sneaky suspicion that the west will survive the insanity of Trump. It has survived worse, and the economic, social, political ties are much deeper than one man
What Trump & Vance were trying to do to Ukraine economically last Friday in The White House, is the same as what Russia has tried to do militarily to Ukraine since 2014.
Trump and Putin both want to take Ukraine and give nothing back, such as a Security Guarantee.
Actually they did give a Security Guarantee before, in the Budapest Memorandum, in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons.
Britain and France are honouring this guarantee, Russia and the US, not so much.
The aim for the US seems to be to make money, even though this will weaken America around the world.
Moreover, this is very dangerous for the US. Trust has gone - who would trust Trump to honour any trade deal or security guarantee?
Yes, you're right, trust has gone, which also is very sad at a personal level for many of us, as we reflect and remember...
Britain & The Commonwealth stood alone against fascism for over 2 years from 1939; my father and family lived in Coventry, a city which was heavily bombed in the mass killing of civilians, started by the fascists in 1940, ahead of Hitler's planned invasion that year; Dad then served in the army in North Africa, Sicily and up through Italy to Austria thro ugh to1945; the British were fighting shoulder-to-shoulder alonside Canadians, Americans and many others, against the common enemy.
How sad all those who went through WW2 would be now to see our greatest allie of all, the US, turn away from standing-up for freedom against a cold killing dictator.
True. The US will soon stand alone in the world. America will be First, but in a group of One...
I’ve been listening to this podcast for 4 years mostly because of it’s even handedness on topics, but this entire episode was so hyperbolic it was nearly unlistenable.
I agree that Trump’s treatment of Zelensky was appalling, but the idea that the US will abandon Europe is nonsense. The administration has consistently and plainly stated that it will continue to back Article 5 and NATO (Trump, his defense secretary, secretary of state, national security advisor) have all repeated this and it is enshrined in US law, with overwhelming bipartisan support. Even if Trump wanted to leave, it would take a decade, time Trump doesn’t have.
Nevermind that Trump has been quite friendly to European leaders such as Macron, Meloni, Mertz and Starmer (it was quite shocking that trump not only repeatedly praised Starmer, but publicly backed most of Britain’s ask on Trade and the Chaigos Islands and doesn’t care about Britian’s trade deficit). The Trump administration has also consistently reassured and praised Poland. (https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/7784/Artykul/3486715,update-polish-president-reassured-of-us-commitment-after-talks-with-trump-envoy
https://evrimagaci.org/tpg/poland-bolsters-security-ties-with-us-amid-ukraine-crisis-206160). The reality is, the Americans are stretched thin in the face of the growing power of China and needs Europe to be more active in defense of Europe
There is a genuine split over Ukraine, but Ukraine isn’t all of Europe. And the idea that economic ties will rupture over this is patently insane - neither America or Europe could afford such a thing.
This isn’t to say one can’t be outraged by Trump’s treatment of Ukraine (I am), his cozying up to Russia (it’s disgusting). It’s to say that it’s been less than 6 weeks and much has yet to be determined. Politics still need to happen, and as Trump’s number continue to sink (he’s under water), and the economy continues to weaken, it’s likely that in 6 months time Trump will be severely weakened.
In the current reality where everything is governed by hyperbolic, sensationalized pronouncements, I hope that the Other Hand continues to be even keeled and clear eyed. Lord knows the world needs more of it.
I'm sorry that you found my comments hyperbolic. I've reflected on your argument and on what I said. You probably won't be surprised to hear that I respectfully disagree.
Balance is a good thing. But sometimes pursued enirely for its own sake it can lead us into a trap: we might fail to recognise that an issue or question doesn't really have a balanced or nuanced answer. It really is, occasionally, very one sided.
I'm not the only one to argue in this way. Far more respected commentators than me have used the words 'The West is over'. Martin Wolf in the FT for example.
History is littered with examples of self-interest pursued by nation states that leads to disaster - the opposite of self-interest.
Others who use similar language to me are Hal Brands in the current issue of Foreign Affairs and Max Hasting's in today's issue of the London Times.
Trump has muttered about it and in the last few days Elon Musk has explicitly called for it: US withdrawal from both NATO and the UN.
I could go on but perhaps best leave it there.
Respectfully, this comment isn’t up to your caliber. I spelled out specific reasons why I think the US will not abandon Europe. I get the vibes are terrible and Trump is noxious, but we must take the time to actually reason through the tough times. And while Ukraine might be on the chopping block, US-Europe relations will persist. 70% of Americans support NATO, and Trump isn’t forever.
I’ve read those commentators also and while they are incredibly well written, I find them lacking in specifics or analysis. Trump and Elon may mutter. But they are not as powerful as we think and serious headwinds are on the horizon.
It’s been only 6 weeks of this administration. Perhaps you are right that “the west is over”. And while it’s quite clear the nature of the relationship will change, I have a sneaky suspicion that the west will survive the insanity of Trump. It has survived worse, and the economic, social, political ties are much deeper than one man
Lads it’s been a while since I woke up on a Sunny Sunday morning to be greeted with a podcast from the other hand - looking forward to my walk now!
Chat soon!